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OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Vladimir Engelgardt
Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application (VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.
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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Andras Lasso

OpenGL capability detection is broken when you use RDP: if you start an application before connecting through RDP it works just fine (see some details and workarounds here: http://na-mic.org/Mantis/view.php?id=4252).

 

Could somebody try what happens if we skip capability detection on startup and force using all OpenGL features that is needed for the OpenGL2 backend?

 

Andras

 

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 6:14 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Ken Martin
In reply to this post by Vladimir Engelgardt
If you have to support RDP (as opposed to other solutions), and you have to support clients that lack a GPU etc, then you could build your application against Mesa (with OpenSWR or llvm as the renderer) and I believe it should work everywhere including RDP.

Ideally at run time we could detect this and pick Mesa/Hardware but I don't think anyone has had time to dig into how difficult that would be.

From what I could find nvidia only supports hardware RDP on their professional cards. It would certainly be nice if vendors would do what they can to support modern OpenGL more broadly in cases like this.





On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
View this message in context: http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/OpenGL-backend-1-1-vs-2-0-tp5743167.html
Sent from the VTK - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--
Ken Martin PhD
Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.

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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Ben Boeckel
In reply to this post by Vladimir Engelgardt
On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 03:14:44 -0700, Vladimir Engelgardt wrote:
> Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
> and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

Note that the 1 vs. 2 meaning is a VTK-ism. The OpenGL2 backend requires
features from OpenGL 3.2 (at least). The "2" comes from the fact that
it's the second OpenGL backend, not the version of OpenGL.

--Ben
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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Ken Martin
Yes :-) The thought was that the old backend would go away fairly quickly and then OpenGL2 would be renamed OpenGL. I don't think we expected the old backend to be needed this long. One of the reasons I'd like to see Mesa as a fallback is to allow us to get rid of the old backend as at that point we should have a solution that works on everything above a vt100 :-)

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Ben Boeckel <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 03:14:44 -0700, Vladimir Engelgardt wrote:
> Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
> and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

Note that the 1 vs. 2 meaning is a VTK-ism. The OpenGL2 backend requires
features from OpenGL 3.2 (at least). The "2" comes from the fact that
it's the second OpenGL backend, not the version of OpenGL.

--Ben
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--
Ken Martin PhD
Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.

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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Andras Lasso
In reply to this post by Ken Martin

VTK's OpenGL2 backend works very well through RDP - including volume rendering, even using a client without GPU. The only limitation (an important one) is that you have to start your application before connecting through RDP.

 

The only thing to figure out is how to convince applications to start “normally” when connected through RDP.

 

Andras

 

From: vtk-developers [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Martin
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:51 AM
To: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

If you have to support RDP (as opposed to other solutions), and you have to support clients that lack a GPU etc, then you could build your application against Mesa (with OpenSWR or llvm as the renderer) and I believe it should work everywhere including RDP.

 

Ideally at run time we could detect this and pick Mesa/Hardware but I don't think anyone has had time to dig into how difficult that would be.

 

From what I could find nvidia only supports hardware RDP on their professional cards. It would certainly be nice if vendors would do what they can to support modern OpenGL more broadly in cases like this.

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
View this message in context: http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/OpenGL-backend-1-1-vs-2-0-tp5743167.html
Sent from the VTK - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--

Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.


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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Ken Martin
Hmmm, maybe something like this

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/c8295ef8-3711-4576-9293-2c4965280165/opengl-and-remote-desktop?forum=winserverTS

In your batch file make sure you reconnect your session to the physical console before attempting to launch the CAD app.  Here is the command:

tscon 1 /dest:console

I am thinking your batch file only needs two lines, something like:

tscon 1 /dest:console
start "C:\Program Files\SolidWorks Corp\SolidWorks\sldworks.exe"

The first line will disconnect your remote PC and connect the session to the physical keyboard/video/mouse, then the second line will launch the CAD program (substitute your CAD software).  After that you wait several seconds for the software to start and then reconnect to the session from your home PC.

You should have the batch file Run as administrator.  I made an assumption above that the current session id is 1.  Your session id may be different--you can use query session at a command prompt to find your session id.


On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Andras Lasso <[hidden email]> wrote:

VTK's OpenGL2 backend works very well through RDP - including volume rendering, even using a client without GPU. The only limitation (an important one) is that you have to start your application before connecting through RDP.

 

The only thing to figure out is how to convince applications to start “normally” when connected through RDP.

 

Andras

 

From: vtk-developers [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Martin
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:51 AM
To: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

If you have to support RDP (as opposed to other solutions), and you have to support clients that lack a GPU etc, then you could build your application against Mesa (with OpenSWR or llvm as the renderer) and I believe it should work everywhere including RDP.

 

Ideally at run time we could detect this and pick Mesa/Hardware but I don't think anyone has had time to dig into how difficult that would be.

 

From what I could find nvidia only supports hardware RDP on their professional cards. It would certainly be nice if vendors would do what they can to support modern OpenGL more broadly in cases like this.

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
View this message in context: http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/OpenGL-backend-1-1-vs-2-0-tp5743167.html
Sent from the VTK - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--

Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.




--
Ken Martin PhD
Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.

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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Andras Lasso

Terminating RDP connection and restart the application in a batch file works well. It would be quite usable if we could build this into the application instead of setting up a separate batch file.

 

We need to detect insufficient OpenGL capabilities anyway (the current way of Paraview simply crashing when starting through RDP is just embarrassing). It should not be too difficult to add RDP connection termination and application restart there.

 

After some more web search, it doesn’t seem to be possible to access the regular OpenGL context when an application started through RDP. Applications that need maximum compatibility include multiple rendering backends with dynamic switching (such as Qt 5 rendering engine, based on a run-time check at application startup) or static selection (e.g., 3D Studio Max). However, in the long term I would prefer seeing the VTK community spending time with developing new features than maintaining a legacy backend.

 

Andras

 

From: Ken Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>
Cc: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>; VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

Hmmm, maybe something like this

 

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/c8295ef8-3711-4576-9293-2c4965280165/opengl-and-remote-desktop?forum=winserverTS

 

In your batch file make sure you reconnect your session to the physical console before attempting to launch the CAD app.  Here is the command:

tscon 1 /dest:console

I am thinking your batch file only needs two lines, something like:

tscon 1 /dest:console
start "C:\Program Files\SolidWorks Corp\SolidWorks\sldworks.exe"

The first line will disconnect your remote PC and connect the session to the physical keyboard/video/mouse, then the second line will launch the CAD program (substitute your CAD software).  After that you wait several seconds for the software to start and then reconnect to the session from your home PC.

You should have the batch file Run as administrator.  I made an assumption above that the current session id is 1.  Your session id may be different--you can use query session at a command prompt to find your session id.

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Andras Lasso <[hidden email]> wrote:

VTK's OpenGL2 backend works very well through RDP - including volume rendering, even using a client without GPU. The only limitation (an important one) is that you have to start your application before connecting through RDP.

 

The only thing to figure out is how to convince applications to start “normally” when connected through RDP.

 

Andras

 

From: vtk-developers [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Martin
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:51 AM
To: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

If you have to support RDP (as opposed to other solutions), and you have to support clients that lack a GPU etc, then you could build your application against Mesa (with OpenSWR or llvm as the renderer) and I believe it should work everywhere including RDP.

 

Ideally at run time we could detect this and pick Mesa/Hardware but I don't think anyone has had time to dig into how difficult that would be.

 

From what I could find nvidia only supports hardware RDP on their professional cards. It would certainly be nice if vendors would do what they can to support modern OpenGL more broadly in cases like this.

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
View this message in context: http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/OpenGL-backend-1-1-vs-2-0-tp5743167.html
Sent from the VTK - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--

Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.



 

--

Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.


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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Berk Geveci-2
In reply to this post by Vladimir Engelgardt
To answer this questions that wasn't answered:

> We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

The plan that was floated so far is to drop OpenGL 1 support by the end of 2017. Even this drags a bit longer, it will not be supported for very long. We encourage everyone who are running on drivers that do not support OpenGL 3.2 to start looking into Mesa with OpenSWR.

Best,
-berk


On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



--
View this message in context: http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/OpenGL-backend-1-1-vs-2-0-tp5743167.html
Sent from the VTK - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
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Re: OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

Ken Martin
In reply to this post by Andras Lasso


We need to detect insufficient OpenGL capabilities anyway (the current way of Paraview simply crashing when starting through RDP is just embarrassing). It should not be too difficult to add RDP connection termination and application restart there.


It should be graceful but it wasn't. This topic makes it so that VTK at least can check and fail gracefully when running on RDP.  


 

 

After some more web search, it doesn’t seem to be possible to access the regular OpenGL context when an application started through RDP. Applications that need maximum compatibility include multiple rendering backends with dynamic switching (such as Qt 5 rendering engine, based on a run-time check at application startup) or static selection (e.g., 3D Studio Max). However, in the long term I would prefer seeing the VTK community spending time with developing new features than maintaining a legacy backend.

 

Andras

 

From: Ken Martin [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>
Cc: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>; VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

Hmmm, maybe something like this

 

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/c8295ef8-3711-4576-9293-2c4965280165/opengl-and-remote-desktop?forum=winserverTS

 

In your batch file make sure you reconnect your session to the physical console before attempting to launch the CAD app.  Here is the command:

tscon 1 /dest:console

I am thinking your batch file only needs two lines, something like:

tscon 1 /dest:console
start "C:\Program Files\SolidWorks Corp\SolidWorks\sldworks.exe"

The first line will disconnect your remote PC and connect the session to the physical keyboard/video/mouse, then the second line will launch the CAD program (substitute your CAD software).  After that you wait several seconds for the software to start and then reconnect to the session from your home PC.

You should have the batch file Run as administrator.  I made an assumption above that the current session id is 1.  Your session id may be different--you can use query session at a command prompt to find your session id.

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Andras Lasso <[hidden email]> wrote:

VTK's OpenGL2 backend works very well through RDP - including volume rendering, even using a client without GPU. The only limitation (an important one) is that you have to start your application before connecting through RDP.

 

The only thing to figure out is how to convince applications to start “normally” when connected through RDP.

 

Andras

 

From: vtk-developers [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Martin
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:51 AM
To: Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] OpenGL backend - 1.1 vs 2.0

 

If you have to support RDP (as opposed to other solutions), and you have to support clients that lack a GPU etc, then you could build your application against Mesa (with OpenSWR or llvm as the renderer) and I believe it should work everywhere including RDP.

 

Ideally at run time we could detect this and pick Mesa/Hardware but I don't think anyone has had time to dig into how difficult that would be.

 

From what I could find nvidia only supports hardware RDP on their professional cards. It would certainly be nice if vendors would do what they can to support modern OpenGL more broadly in cases like this.

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:14 AM, Vladimir Engelgardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Problem description: Application uses VTK 7.0 (OpenGL 2 module) for
rendering on Windows platform. But the problem is, that OpenGL 2 has limited
support over Microsoft's Remote Desktop. RDP is a must for our application
(VNC, TeamViewer is not an option). On Win 10 there is an option called 'Use
hardware drivers over RDP' and it works, but for limited set of video
adapters - AMD, Integrated Graphics from Intel and NVIDIA (Tesla, Grid
only).

Is there any workaround for this problem, i.e. detect GL version at runtime
and use 1.1 or 2.0? If no, we are going to switch for OpenGL 1.1.

We concern about OpenGL 1.1 support in future versions of VTK. Is it going
to be supported and how long?

Best Regards,
Vladimir.



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Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

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Ken Martin PhD

Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.

28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

 

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.




--
Ken Martin PhD
Distinguished Engineer
Kitware Inc.
28 Corporate Drive
Clifton Park NY 12065

This communication, including all attachments, contains confidential and legally privileged information, and it is intended only for the use of the addressee.  Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken in reliance on it is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you received this communication in error please notify us immediately and destroy the original message.  Thank you.

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