Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

VTK - Dev mailing list
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 1:46 PM Elvis Stansvik
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Meanwhile I see that discussion is still active on the dev mailing
> list. Shouldn't the VTK developers dogfood and use the Development
> category on Discourse now? :)

Yep, that's the idea for new developer topics. I think it makes sense
for existing discussions to be wrapped up on the mailing list for
archival purposes.

> Sorry, mostly joking. I'm one of the ones who are sad to see the
> mailing lists go, and the greater transition to Discourse, as my life
> is sort of built around my inbox :p I'll grudgingly accept defeat and
> register of course.

You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
the discussion leading up to this transition.

- Cory

>
> Elvis
>
> Den tis 22 jan. 2019 kl 19:28 skrev Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > A soft transition worked quite nicely for both Slicer and ITK. For a while, questions sent to the mailing list were still answered there but a users were reminded that further questions should be posted to the forum. Then we stopped responding on the mailing list but asked people to post messages to discourse. Finally, we disabled posting to the list and set an auto-response message that explained that questions should be now posted on the forum. This transition was completed in a few months.
> >
> >
> >
> > It took a couple of months for google to start indexing the forum with high frequency and about a year to reach the same number of registered members as on the old mailing list.
> >
> >
> >
> > Andras
> >
> >
> >
> > From: vtkusers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jan Hardenbergh
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 12:48 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker
> >
> >
> >
> > There is a question here that has not really been addressed in the Welcome To Discourse page:
> >
> >  https://discourse.vtk.org/t/welcome-to-discourse/8
> >
> >
> >
> > Why should they come here?
> >
> >
> >
> > What is the motivation for the switch?
> >
> >
> >
> > If this will make it easier to provide support, that’s a good reason. A good transition strategy might be to reply to questions that are asked on the mailing list in Discourse, and then reply to the mailing list with the link.
> >
> >
> >
> > Another transition strategy would be to post the Topics Titles active for the past week to get people to go to Discourse if they are interested in that topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Back to lurking…
> >
> > YON – Jan C. Hardenbergh, VolumePro SW Eng. Mgr. Terarecon, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >
> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >
> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >
> > Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
> >
> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> _______________________________________________
> Powered by www.kitware.com
>
> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
>
> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
>
> Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
>
> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers



--
Cory Quammen
Staff R&D Engineer
Kitware, Inc.
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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

VTK - Dev mailing list
Elvis,
We transition to Discourse for ParaView and I still receive and reply to emails the same way as for mailing lists.




On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 2:05 PM Elvis Stansvik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Den ons 23 jan. 2019 kl 19:50 skrev Cory Quammen <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 1:46 PM Elvis Stansvik
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Meanwhile I see that discussion is still active on the dev mailing
> > list. Shouldn't the VTK developers dogfood and use the Development
> > category on Discourse now? :)
>
> Yep, that's the idea for new developer topics. I think it makes sense
> for existing discussions to be wrapped up on the mailing list for
> archival purposes.
>
> > Sorry, mostly joking. I'm one of the ones who are sad to see the
> > mailing lists go, and the greater transition to Discourse, as my life
> > is sort of built around my inbox :p I'll grudgingly accept defeat and
> > register of course.
>
> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
> the discussion leading up to this transition.

Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.. I can't collect all my
correspondence in one place anymore, marking/unmarking of stuff as
read etc., the mails from Discourse has a lot of cruft (buttons/links)
and the threading/replying inline doesn't work well. Also, if I reply
to a thread via the web UI, it'll show up as unread in my inbox
(naturally), which is annoying because I use that to keep an eye on
topics I follow. Also can't catch up on stuff while offline, which
occasionally do happen.

Wait, now I started a rambling when I promised myself not to do it :)
It's a community decision and I accept that. Perhaps the mail
integration will improve.

Elvis

>
> - Cory
>
> >
> > Elvis
> >
> > Den tis 22 jan. 2019 kl 19:28 skrev Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > A soft transition worked quite nicely for both Slicer and ITK. For a while, questions sent to the mailing list were still answered there but a users were reminded that further questions should be posted to the forum. Then we stopped responding on the mailing list but asked people to post messages to discourse. Finally, we disabled posting to the list and set an auto-response message that explained that questions should be now posted on the forum. This transition was completed in a few months.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It took a couple of months for google to start indexing the forum with high frequency and about a year to reach the same number of registered members as on the old mailing list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andras
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: vtkusers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jan Hardenbergh
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 12:48 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a question here that has not really been addressed in the Welcome To Discourse page:
> > >
> > >  https://discourse.vtk.org/t/welcome-to-discourse/8
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why should they come here?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the motivation for the switch?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this will make it easier to provide support, that’s a good reason. A good transition strategy might be to reply to questions that are asked on the mailing list in Discourse, and then reply to the mailing list with the link.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Another transition strategy would be to post the Topics Titles active for the past week to get people to go to Discourse if they are interested in that topic.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Back to lurking…
> > >
> > > YON – Jan C. Hardenbergh, VolumePro SW Eng. Mgr. Terarecon, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Powered by www.kitware.com
> > >
> > > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> > >
> > > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> > >
> > > Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
> > >
> > > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> > _______________________________________________
> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >
> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >
> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >
> > Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
> >
> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>
>
>
> --
> Cory Quammen
> Staff R&D Engineer
> Kitware, Inc.
_______________________________________________
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Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers

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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

VTK - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by VTK - Dev mailing list
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 2:05 PM Elvis Stansvik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Den ons 23 jan. 2019 kl 19:50 skrev Cory Quammen <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 1:46 PM Elvis Stansvik
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Meanwhile I see that discussion is still active on the dev mailing
> > list. Shouldn't the VTK developers dogfood and use the Development
> > category on Discourse now? :)
>
> Yep, that's the idea for new developer topics. I think it makes sense
> for existing discussions to be wrapped up on the mailing list for
> archival purposes.
>
> > Sorry, mostly joking. I'm one of the ones who are sad to see the
> > mailing lists go, and the greater transition to Discourse, as my life
> > is sort of built around my inbox :p I'll grudgingly accept defeat and
> > register of course.
>
> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
> the discussion leading up to this transition.

Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.. I can't collect all my
correspondence in one place anymore, marking/unmarking of stuff as
read etc., the mails from Discourse has a lot of cruft (buttons/links)
and the threading/replying inline doesn't work well. Also, if I reply
to a thread via the web UI, it'll show up as unread in my inbox
(naturally), which is annoying because I use that to keep an eye on
topics I follow. Also can't catch up on stuff while offline, which
occasionally do happen.

Wait, now I started a rambling when I promised myself not to do it :)
It's a community decision and I accept that. Perhaps the mail
integration will improve.

I am trying to finish up some writing, and so procrastination made me check the lists. I love and hate Discourse, there, I said it! The interface is nice, and I think you can express more, fix typos, have richer interactions, and provide a better thing to be indexed/viewed by others.

Discourse is still a pain for people that participate in many communities, email is hard to beat for using the client you prefer, threading support, having layers of communities you work with. I have a chemistry folder with chemistry lists I am on within, a Kitware folder with Kitware related communities, general lists folder for all the others.

Each of those subfolders is starting to become their own Discourse instance, and it makes it harder for me to keep track of all of them, and view them all from my mail client, replying with ease. I get the impression that mailing lists are going the way of IRC :-) I am trying to adapt my habits, but often miss notifications on threads I am taking part in, and don't reply for weeks or more.

I suspect I need to develop new habits, spending a little time checking in on Discourse instances I interact with every now and then, possibly tweaking the notifications, and how I filter them in my email folder. I genuinely prefer the added richness in discussion threads, I haven't tried replying to Discourse stuff through email. Attending open source conferences/workshops Discourse is improving engagement with newer community members.

I think on balance it is a great step forward, but when something works well for you (and me) it can feel like a waste of time changing it up. It does us all good to learn new things, tangentially it has been fun to watch the evolution of static web site, to server side includes, to Dreamweaver et al, to PHP/MySQL content managers, to template-based static web sites. I am a huge fan of Hugo, you can use GitHub for review, Travis to deploy, ...

I really should get back to writing ;-) Sad to see the demise of the lists, and need to spend a little time retooling my habits around communication with communities.

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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Sean McBride
In reply to this post by VTK - Dev mailing list
On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:05:17 +0100, Elvis Stansvik said:

>> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
>> the discussion leading up to this transition.
>
>Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
>participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
>Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.

Yup, it's quite a lot worse. :(  Alas, I expect my participation will decrease because of it.

Sean


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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Andras Lasso
> the mails from Discourse has a lot of cruft (buttons/links)

The email template is fully configurable. Post your suggestions here: https://discourse.vtk.org/c/site-feedback

> I expect my participation will decrease because of it.

My experience is just the opposite. By setting up notifications properly, I only get emails about categories, topics, and keywords that I'm interested in, so I can follow activities of more communities.

Andras

-----Original Message-----
From: vtk-developers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Sean McBride
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 2:27 PM
To: Elvis Stansvik <[hidden email]>; Cory Quammen <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; Jan Hardenbergh <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:05:17 +0100, Elvis Stansvik said:

>> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
>> the discussion leading up to this transition.
>
>Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
>participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
>Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.

Yup, it's quite a lot worse. :(  Alas, I expect my participation will decrease because of it.

Sean


_______________________________________________
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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Bill Lorensen
In reply to this post by VTK - Dev mailing list
I agree.

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 11:05 AM Elvis Stansvik <[hidden email] wrote:
Den ons 23 jan. 2019 kl 19:50 skrev Cory Quammen <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 1:46 PM Elvis Stansvik
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Meanwhile I see that discussion is still active on the dev mailing
> > list. Shouldn't the VTK developers dogfood and use the Development
> > category on Discourse now? :)
>
> Yep, that's the idea for new developer topics. I think it makes sense
> for existing discussions to be wrapped up on the mailing list for
> archival purposes.
>
> > Sorry, mostly joking. I'm one of the ones who are sad to see the
> > mailing lists go, and the greater transition to Discourse, as my life
> > is sort of built around my inbox :p I'll grudgingly accept defeat and
> > register of course.
>
> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
> the discussion leading up to this transition.

Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.. I can't collect all my
correspondence in one place anymore, marking/unmarking of stuff as
read etc., the mails from Discourse has a lot of cruft (buttons/links)
and the threading/replying inline doesn't work well. Also, if I reply
to a thread via the web UI, it'll show up as unread in my inbox
(naturally), which is annoying because I use that to keep an eye on
topics I follow. Also can't catch up on stuff while offline, which
occasionally do happen.

Wait, now I started a rambling when I promised myself not to do it :)
It's a community decision and I accept that. Perhaps the mail
integration will improve.

Elvis

>
> - Cory
>
> >
> > Elvis
> >
> > Den tis 22 jan. 2019 kl 19:28 skrev Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > A soft transition worked quite nicely for both Slicer and ITK. For a while, questions sent to the mailing list were still answered there but a users were reminded that further questions should be posted to the forum. Then we stopped responding on the mailing list but asked people to post messages to discourse. Finally, we disabled posting to the list and set an auto-response message that explained that questions should be now posted on the forum. This transition was completed in a few months.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It took a couple of months for google to start indexing the forum with high frequency and about a year to reach the same number of registered members as on the old mailing list.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andras
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: vtkusers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jan Hardenbergh
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 12:48 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a question here that has not really been addressed in the Welcome To Discourse page:
> > >
> > >  https://discourse.vtk.org/t/welcome-to-discourse/8
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why should they come here?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the motivation for the switch?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this will make it easier to provide support, that’s a good reason. A good transition strategy might be to reply to questions that are asked on the mailing list in Discourse, and then reply to the mailing list with the link.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Another transition strategy would be to post the Topics Titles active for the past week to get people to go to Discourse if they are interested in that topic.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Back to lurking…
> > >
> > > YON – Jan C. Hardenbergh, VolumePro SW Eng. Mgr. Terarecon, Inc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Powered by www.kitware.com
> > >
> > > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> > >
> > > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> > >
> > > Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
> > >
> > > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
> > _______________________________________________
> > Powered by www.kitware.com
> >
> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html
> >
> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at: http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ
> >
> > Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers
> >
> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > https://vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers
>
>
>
> --
> Cory Quammen
> Staff R&D Engineer
> Kitware, Inc.
_______________________________________________
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Search the list archives at: http://markmail.org/search/?q=vtkusers

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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Bill Lorensen
In reply to this post by Sean McBride
Sean, 

Email works for me vis discourse. Please don't reduce your participation.

We need you.

Bill

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 11:27 AM Sean McBride <[hidden email] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:05:17 +0100, Elvis Stansvik said:

>> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
>> the discussion leading up to this transition.
>
>Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
>participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
>Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.

Yup, it's quite a lot worse. :(  Alas, I expect my participation will decrease because of it.

Sean


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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Elvis Stansvik
In reply to this post by Andras Lasso
Den ons 23 jan. 2019 kl 20:42 skrev Andras Lasso <[hidden email]>:
>
> > the mails from Discourse has a lot of cruft (buttons/links)
>
> The email template is fully configurable. Post your suggestions here: https://discourse.vtk.org/c/site-feedback

Ah, great idea, I made a post:
https://discourse.vtk.org/t/customize-the-e-mail-template/109

Elvis

>
> > I expect my participation will decrease because of it.
>
> My experience is just the opposite. By setting up notifications properly, I only get emails about categories, topics, and keywords that I'm interested in, so I can follow activities of more communities.
>
> Andras
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vtk-developers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Sean McBride
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 2:27 PM
> To: Elvis Stansvik <[hidden email]>; Cory Quammen <[hidden email]>
> Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; Jan Hardenbergh <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker
>
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 20:05:17 +0100, Elvis Stansvik said:
>
> >> You can still use email! Albeit with some of the caveats mentioned in
> >> the discussion leading up to this transition.
> >
> >Yep, threw in some thoughts in that that thread (I think). I
> >participate some in other communities that have transitioned to
> >Discourse (e.g. HDF5), and it's a pain.
>
> Yup, it's quite a lot worse. :(  Alas, I expect my participation will decrease because of it.
>
> Sean
>
>
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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

David Gobbi
In reply to this post by Sean McBride
Hi Paul,

As far as I understand, Kitware is running Discourse on their own server.  So even if it is bought out, Kitware can continue to use the version that they currently have and fork/patch it as necessary.  And I'm sure that if anyone audits the Discourse code base and finds that it is leaking analytics to someone, Kitware would be happy to plug the leak.

In any case, there's plenty of analytics that companies can do based on public mailing lists, and I don't think a public forum is any different in that regard unless you include confidential info in your profile.

  David


On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 2:25 PM Paul Douglas Hahn <[hidden email]> wrote:
I realize I am not an important voice for this topic, but with
Discourse, I can say that I anticipate termination of "real-time"
monitoring of VTK issues that I now do with the mailing lists. I do not
want to be on a "free" community site that is or might become oriented
to make money of me one way or another (hidden), tracking me, etc. etc.

Hmmm ... so how long will it take Microsoft to come in and buy Discourse
just like they did with Github? And what is the relationship (if any)
between Bloomberg's Discourse Analytics (www.discourseanalytics.com) and
Discourse.org? They both have similar logos. Just wondering.

Bye,
Paul

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Re: [vtkusers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

Andras Lasso

Full content of VTK mailing lists, names, email addresses have been already publicly available on the web (http://vtk.1045678.n5.nabble.com/, https://vtk.org/pipermail/vtkusers/, etc).

 

However, spammers don’t even need to harvest email addresses one by one. It is enough if a spammer subscribes to any of the VTK mailing list (there is no sophisticated anti-spam measures) and he gets access to email addresses of all the other subscribers. See for example the 3000+ email addresses listed at https://vtk.org/mailman/roster/vtkusers:

 

 

 

On discourse your email address is never publicly disclosed and many spam countermeasures are implemented. If you have privacy or security concerns then you should welcome the switch to discourse.

 

Andras

 

 

From: vtkusers <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Paul Douglas Hahn
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 5:22 PM
To: David Gobbi <[hidden email]>
Cc: VTK Developers <[hidden email]>; VTK Users <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [vtkusers] [vtk-developers] Transition to Discourse - thoughts from lurker

 

OK, thanks for that. Sounds more innocuous.

As a remark, I believe that the quality of analytic products done on mailing lists is far less than that which can be done on community sites with engines in the middle, especially for one reason: the latter allows tracking message reads in detail, and moreover, who does the reads (vs. who does not), and what are the characteristics. All this to formulate rich feature vectors for ANN training. I believe that that is not feasible with mailing lists, but I may be wrong. And of course, it's easy enough to correlate names to confidential info already snarfed into the world of databases out there.

- Paul

On 1/23/19 4:03 PM, David Gobbi wrote:

Hi Paul,

 

As far as I understand, Kitware is running Discourse on their own server.  So even if it is bought out, Kitware can continue to use the version that they currently have and fork/patch it as necessary.  And I'm sure that if anyone audits the Discourse code base and finds that it is leaking analytics to someone, Kitware would be happy to plug the leak.

 

In any case, there's plenty of analytics that companies can do based on public mailing lists, and I don't think a public forum is any different in that regard unless you include confidential info in your profile.

 

  David

 

 

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 2:25 PM Paul Douglas Hahn <[hidden email]> wrote:

I realize I am not an important voice for this topic, but with
Discourse, I can say that I anticipate termination of "real-time"
monitoring of VTK issues that I now do with the mailing lists. I do not
want to be on a "free" community site that is or might become oriented
to make money of me one way or another (hidden), tracking me, etc. etc.

Hmmm ... so how long will it take Microsoft to come in and buy Discourse
just like they did with Github? And what is the relationship (if any)
between Bloomberg's Discourse Analytics (www.discourseanalytics.com) and
Discourse.org? They both have similar logos. Just wondering.

Bye,
Paul



-- 
 
 

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